That’s a good way to put it; that the Left is comprised of various ideologies. I often try to pin down what exactly the Left is. I now think of it as a bundle of collectivist ideologies all built on a foundation of skepticism.

madmax: yes, that’s the ticket: nothing will discredit the Left in the eyes of Leftists. Unfortunately, Leftists still dominate academia, so there is still no intellectual force to hold them accountable.

The Left has been the dominant cultural force for destruction in the West for the last two centuries; its various ideologies were what made the twentieth century what it was: the century of mass murder. The religious conservatives are hoping that mankind tires of it all and sulks back into the darkness of primitive religious feudalism.

No kidding, madmax. On the capitalism forum, we had a 37-page argument with a self-professed Communist. He was young and had “ideas”, not some ingrained old Marxist stuck at a crummy job for 30 years. Of his kind visiting our forum, he was one of the most open minded.

After 37 pages, several less extensive threads and a good amount of thinking, he later became a classical liberal and on the verge of accepting Objectivism.

His was an exceedingly rare case amongst people who start out with similar attitudes.

Myrhaf bravely declares: “no way we let it get that bad!” Too late, Myrhaf. BTW the bit about the underground shelter was a bit of playful hyperbole. But underground concrete houses are becoming quite utilitarian for people who want to minimise their utility bills. They can be as luxurious as you want them to be.

I agree with you, BTW, that the enemies of the US are beginning to look at the country as a paper tiger again. After Obama remakes the US military in his own image, they will be partially correct. If there is any real meat tiger left in the marrow of America outside of the government, it will have to start training for an emboldened enemy.

Yaron Brook said last year that Islam cannot defeat us. The disparity between the two combatants is too great. It can greatly demoralize us and create a crisis that would bring on unimaginable economic destruction, but only the US government can destroy America. Obama, McCain, Pelosi and Reid are a greater threat to our security than a bunch of Muslim freaks in a cave in Pakistan.

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2009/01/red-alert-full-power-to-shields-scotty.html

“After Obama / Pelosi destroy the energy infrastructure of the US, and finish off the US economy, your choices will be reduced in number. After widespread bombings, radiation plumes, and a plague of engineered viruses and toxins, there may not be many people left to worry about these things anyway.”

The last time the Left got “set back” in this particular fashion, it only lasted 8 days (at least from my POV).”

Yes, you make a good point. Nothing – repeat Nothing – will discredit Leftism in the eyes of Leftists. For a person to reject Leftism, he would have to reject altruism and egalitarianism. That would require the kind of mental rebuilding that so few people do.

But, the destruction that Obama is likely to cause might discredit much of the bulk of Leftism in the eyes of people of mixed premises; non-ideological people who might get a grasp of the fact that “spread the wealth” and appease our enemies doesn’t work. No they won’t understand it intellectually, but they might understand it in vague enough terms that the country might swing back to the right (in the good sense) as a result.

I’m trying to be positive. Trying…

I wonder what the ratio of those people is against the ones you speak of, who swallowed rather than tasted socialism.

I think we have a huge opportunity in the next four years because when Obama talks about practicality and doing what works, people think he means the prosperity and economic growth we experienced in the ’80s and ’90s. There could be a big backlash when they discover that he means something else entirely.

In whose eyes?

The last time the Left got “set back” in this particular fashion, it only lasted 8 days (at least from my POV). Then they started putting up the initial test balloons (outrageous statements from their most whacked-out academics first, e.g. Ward Churchill); after a few weeks of that and getting only conservative responses, they knew they were safe.

There is no one to hold the Left accountable but us. If we could pull it off, then sure. But there is nobody else equipped to do it.